Would be interesting to see a synthesis with Kleidon's work, to understand where the power generation physically originates. There may be no conflict.
On the one hand, Kleidon might argue it originates from differential solar radiative heating and associated temperature gradients, while Markarieva here provides a framework how atmosphere generates approximately as much mechanical power as the hydrologic cycle allows (thermodynamically).
So we know there is a link, where hydrological cycling and differential solar radiative heating are coupled to co-evolve towards optimal efficiency in generation.
The bits where maximum power is arrived at analytically through a certain cloud max height is fascinating. Although we are also interested in cloud fraction and distribution towards solving differential solar heating. Why does system resolve to certain patterns and not others.
This really does seem to be a central question to analytical foundations for climate.
This is a good one -- but I'm gonna have to re-read it a couple of times and remember my thermodynamics from 45 years ago! Looking forward to hearing about your adventures in Siberia!
Anastassia, congratulations on the paper. The steam-engine framing is the ground I worked through in Regenesis #141 in early 2025, in a long back-and-forth with Alpha Lo and Peter Bunyard, and then in the paper Peter, Rob de Laet and I published, "In Defence of the Biotic Pump" (J. Atmos. Sci. Res. 8(1), 2025). We came at it from Newcomen and Watt and from Peter's chamber experiments rather than from the thermodynamics, and your contribution [b] is the formal version of what those experiments show: condensation energy tracks measured airflow.
Where our reading diverges is on latent heat. The engine and the chamber make a local claim. At the condensation site the latent heat has to leave, or the pressure drop never forms and the piston stalls. Your third story makes a different move, granting the temperature structure aloft a cooperative role that holds the lower work in place against the return flow. The question that raises for me is whether that role quietly hands the steering back to differential heating, the driver CIAD was built to displace. If temperature contrasts are what keep the rain-driven generation from being undone aloft, how much of the circulation is condensation still claiming?
There is a second gap the framing does not reach. What happens to [b] when longwave is trapped aloft, by cirrus or by stratospheric injection, and the radiative cooling that condensation needs is suppressed. Helpful temperature structure and condensation-suppressing trapped heat are not obviously the same thing, and in that second case the engine stalls. I raised this in #141 and it still has no home in the thermodynamics.
Either way, the thermodynamics you have put under CIAD was the missing piece, and really happy to see it.
Thank you, Ali. "The question that raises for me is whether that role quietly hands the steering back to differential heating, the driver CIAD was built to displace. If temperature contrasts are what keep the rain-driven generation from being undone aloft, how much of the circulation is condensation still claiming?"
The picture that emerges from our analysis is that
--Condensation can generate significant power in the lower atmosphere both with and without differential heating (the latter exemplified by tropical cyclones).
--Differential heating without condensation, on the other hand, is unable to generate enough power (this revealed by Lorenz cycle analysis).
--The fact that total power coincides with steam engine power, if not discarded as another coincidence, points to the fact that namely condensation determines the circulation dynamics. Differential heating easily provides as much power as is needed aloft when the lower atmosphere is set to motion by the steam engine.
So because the area under solar radiation and therefore evaporation driven atmospheric moisture expansion is so much bigger than rain fall concentration this explains the expansion contraction wind driven circulation especially as thermal loss of water vapor is associated with altitude cooling and distributed broadly and therefore not all associated with latent heat release. So the discrepancy of heat release at altitude cooling before latent heat release due to condensation allows the biotic pump wind driven mechanism. Therefore day and nighttime atmospheric temperatures would also help drive the system and bioaerosol concentrations along with evaporation intensity to create rainfall activation at different temperatures can help pinpoint where this concentration will activate. (all other things being equal)
I am very much looking forward to going through this, Anastassia! Thank you for ... all you do!
BTW, AirHES is realization of this engine.
https://www.bip-it.com/project/625-cloud-power-water-airhes
Excellent discussion!
Would be interesting to see a synthesis with Kleidon's work, to understand where the power generation physically originates. There may be no conflict.
On the one hand, Kleidon might argue it originates from differential solar radiative heating and associated temperature gradients, while Markarieva here provides a framework how atmosphere generates approximately as much mechanical power as the hydrologic cycle allows (thermodynamically).
So we know there is a link, where hydrological cycling and differential solar radiative heating are coupled to co-evolve towards optimal efficiency in generation.
The bits where maximum power is arrived at analytically through a certain cloud max height is fascinating. Although we are also interested in cloud fraction and distribution towards solving differential solar heating. Why does system resolve to certain patterns and not others.
This really does seem to be a central question to analytical foundations for climate.
https://doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.33224.74245
This is a good one -- but I'm gonna have to re-read it a couple of times and remember my thermodynamics from 45 years ago! Looking forward to hearing about your adventures in Siberia!
I'm going to read it again, too, Chuck, before I excerpt it into a blog post. It has "lots of moving parts", especially with the imaginary planets.
Would like to see the role in here of cloud seed (dust) nuclei. Could be an interesting modeling paper . Thanks
Anastassia, congratulations on the paper. The steam-engine framing is the ground I worked through in Regenesis #141 in early 2025, in a long back-and-forth with Alpha Lo and Peter Bunyard, and then in the paper Peter, Rob de Laet and I published, "In Defence of the Biotic Pump" (J. Atmos. Sci. Res. 8(1), 2025). We came at it from Newcomen and Watt and from Peter's chamber experiments rather than from the thermodynamics, and your contribution [b] is the formal version of what those experiments show: condensation energy tracks measured airflow.
Where our reading diverges is on latent heat. The engine and the chamber make a local claim. At the condensation site the latent heat has to leave, or the pressure drop never forms and the piston stalls. Your third story makes a different move, granting the temperature structure aloft a cooperative role that holds the lower work in place against the return flow. The question that raises for me is whether that role quietly hands the steering back to differential heating, the driver CIAD was built to displace. If temperature contrasts are what keep the rain-driven generation from being undone aloft, how much of the circulation is condensation still claiming?
There is a second gap the framing does not reach. What happens to [b] when longwave is trapped aloft, by cirrus or by stratospheric injection, and the radiative cooling that condensation needs is suppressed. Helpful temperature structure and condensation-suppressing trapped heat are not obviously the same thing, and in that second case the engine stalls. I raised this in #141 and it still has no home in the thermodynamics.
Either way, the thermodynamics you have put under CIAD was the missing piece, and really happy to see it.
Looking forward to the Siberia posts.
https://doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.2.33224.74245
Thank you, Ali. "The question that raises for me is whether that role quietly hands the steering back to differential heating, the driver CIAD was built to displace. If temperature contrasts are what keep the rain-driven generation from being undone aloft, how much of the circulation is condensation still claiming?"
The picture that emerges from our analysis is that
--Condensation can generate significant power in the lower atmosphere both with and without differential heating (the latter exemplified by tropical cyclones).
--Differential heating without condensation, on the other hand, is unable to generate enough power (this revealed by Lorenz cycle analysis).
--The fact that total power coincides with steam engine power, if not discarded as another coincidence, points to the fact that namely condensation determines the circulation dynamics. Differential heating easily provides as much power as is needed aloft when the lower atmosphere is set to motion by the steam engine.
Congratulations to you both, @Anastassia Makarieva.
The richness of vibrant colorful masterpieces is the best analogy for the invisible and dynamic laws of physics.
Looking forward to reading it in more depth soon.
Enjoy your trip, fishing, and the rewarding hard work for sustenance. Enjoy the taste of pure water and the fragrance of living Siberia.
So because the area under solar radiation and therefore evaporation driven atmospheric moisture expansion is so much bigger than rain fall concentration this explains the expansion contraction wind driven circulation especially as thermal loss of water vapor is associated with altitude cooling and distributed broadly and therefore not all associated with latent heat release. So the discrepancy of heat release at altitude cooling before latent heat release due to condensation allows the biotic pump wind driven mechanism. Therefore day and nighttime atmospheric temperatures would also help drive the system and bioaerosol concentrations along with evaporation intensity to create rainfall activation at different temperatures can help pinpoint where this concentration will activate. (all other things being equal)
Thank You for working as an act of Love, Anastassia!
It shows.
;-}